Katrina Hancock 0:05

So, Liz, tell me, when you are working with organisations that are facing really big challenges or difficult circumstances, what are some of the things that come to mind to build and maintain trust in those periods?

Liz Reilly 0:18

So, the two main things I think about are kind of what you can do even before you reach those sorts of difficult times, and then what do you do during? And so I think my first real reflection is before you face those times, make deposits in your social capital bank account, basically. And I'll say a bit more about kind of what I mean by that. But but then when once you're in it, once you're in those difficult times, I think the key thing is putting people first. How do you want to make them feel? And I can say more about that too. But those are the two main things they look at is what do you do even up until those periods, and then how do you focus your time and energy when you're actually in those those periods.

Katrina Hancock 1:03

So all that pre-work and building that sort of social bank, that social capital, what do you think that looks like?

Liz Reilly 1:08

So I think that's about, first of all, being seen to be a team player who's invested in the whole organisation and everyone. Again, before the whole organisation faces a difficult moment. So volunteering to help with someone else's project, even if it's not going to be measured in your own KPIs, showing interest in the range of programmes across the institution that you care about, how they're all doing as programmes, but also the people behind them. So, I think there's that element of it. But then I think there's also building frameworks that people have increasing trust and confidence in that are transparent and consistent, and implementing those before you get to a difficult period, so that when you are in a difficult period, people have already built trust in those things. So, for example, a really good gift acceptance policy. Better to design that before you have a big question about why you accepted a gift and it goes into the news. So having those frameworks that people have felt appropriately consulted on, they believe in it, they trust those things, and being seen as a team player, I think that's what you can do beforehand.

Katrina Hancock 2:14

I think there's also something, isn't there, about self-authentication, both for the people in the organisation and outside. Those who've had first hand experience of what's good, what works, or good processes, or have experienced the services or the the way the organisation works, they become self-authenticating advocates because they know that perhaps this is a blip or it's not the norm, or that actually you've been through something similar and you've weathered that storm. And I think that sort of longevity and the length of time people stay in an organisation helps give that perspective that this is now, but there will be a later, and that you can trust the organisation, you can trust the charity to get through that.

Liz Reilly 2:53

That's such a good point, and it really speaks to how important it is for organisations to have some people that have been along for some time, that they have seen some of the peaks and troughs, and they've seen that the organisation itself can weather the storm. So I think that's really important. Yeah. What else have I missed in terms of what you can do to prepare for the storm?

Katrina Hancock 3:11

Well, I know it's really dull, but this is why you have risk registers. And actually having a risk register that's not just on paper, but is something that's a live document that not just the senior management team are looking at once a year, but is a living, breathing part of the way that you work, can help you even before you get to that point. Because if you're aware of what the dangers could be and you're actively mitigating them, it helps you not only obviously divert trouble before it gets there, but when it does come, you know how you're going to handle it. And you know, it sounds so dull that admin side, nobody likes risk, but a risk register done well is a really valuable tool. Boring, but helpful.

Liz Reilly 3:50

The pre-thinking so that you when you're in the moment, you can trust that in a calmer state you already started evaluating how you would handle it. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.

Katrina Hancock 4:00

And I think the other thing is recognising, particularly in fundraising, fundraising is a team sport. So it's very rarely any one person's fault or one person's issue to deal with. Actually, you're there as a team, both as a fundraising team and as a wider organisational team. And it is, as you said right at the start, where can you step up, where can you help, where do you need to come together to move forwards? And to do so with authenticity and integrity, because you need to be modelling that yourself to a team, but also genuinely showing that to the the outside world that you're speaking to, without it, you're never going to have trust.

Liz Reilly 4:35

Yeah, so to have done all of that and to have shown that that's how you operate and that's what those are part of your values before you get to a sticky situation positions you as well as you can be positioned, I think, for that moment, whatever that moment might be. And then I think when you're in it, like I said before, I think really putting people first, so thinking about how do you want to make them feel, and designing your own approach to whatever the thing is based on how you want to make people feel. And I was just talking last week with some staff from one of the many institutions in the UK that are dealing with significant financial challenges. They're thinking they are in the midst of voluntary redundancies, there's there's real nervousness and stress across the institution. And they were saying that actually they would love to see the leadership asking them, what can we do? Asking them as people who are trusted and valued for their expertise, what are we not thinking of? And there's a sense that the leadership is instead retreating. And again, out of pressure, which we all can understand, out of a lot, you know, lack of time that they have, consultation is just one more thing that they may feel they don't have time for, but it's the thing that would actually bring people along the most and deal with the stress that is inevitable no matter what. But so, I think that's that's an area that they're noting is is not happening the way that they think it could be, and it's not bringing along the people who will hopefully be left when they're through this difficult period, right? So I think that's something that institution, but many institutions need to think about more carefully. And and I think for me, you know, we we think a lot about how do you not lose trust in those periods, but actually periods like that could be period opportunities to build more trust than you had before, even if you've done all those other things that we talked about, which were really important to have done beforehand, you know, difficult periods are opportunities to actually really show who you are. Yes. When everyone is tight for time, when communication tends to not be people's best attribute, you know, when patience tends to be low, that actually it's in those moments that you can show you're someone who still cares about people, that you're still taking a calm and measured approach. So I think actually seeing these times as not just times to prevent loss of trust, but as opportunities to build on what you've already done, I think is really important.

Katrina Hancock 7:01

I think that's really key is to recognise that not every disaster or challenge is the final sentence or the final word. There's always an opportunity there. And it's not about spin or trying to make the best out of a bad situation. It's recognise that we're all learning, we're learning all the time. What are we going to take away from this that this doesn't happen again that makes us better, stronger, more resilient, or in fact able to do our jobs better? You know, you take things back from way back from the financial crash, you look at COVID, and yes, they were really tough times at the at the time, but the way that we have changed, evolved, adapted, become stronger, more resilient, and actually become better service deliverers as well as employers, it has really shaken things up, not just because we were making the best of a bad situation. And so one of the things I think that's a real challenge at those points is the the risk of sowing distrust, often through inaction or through not speaking. So the lack of trust doesn't immediately happen overnight, it grows and it is like a disease, it can just rumble away, and if it's not dealt with, that's when it becomes a real issue. And I find often that it's when senior leaders feel that they can't share something or it's too confidential, or that or worse, they're not sure what they can say, and so as a result they go silent. And that silence creates a vacuum where people feel neither part of something and they feel there's a secret that's being held from them. And so I've found in those times that it is, as you say, it's about having conversations, treating people as people. Yes, there's probably things you can't share, but sometimes even being open about that and helping them to recognise that you're in a difficult position too. But I really loved what you were saying about saying, about asking, well, what would you do? What's your solution to this? How how do we get through this together? I think co-creating a solution is always better than imposing one. And that works in every situation.

Liz Reilly 8:52

Yeah, well, and you think about you mentioned COVID already, but you think about COVID, and and I think so many teams have actually really fond memories of how they came together during COVID, what they were still able to achieve during COVID, how they were more vulnerable with each other during COVID, saw into each other's living rooms or bedrooms where people were sometimes working, and just had to deal with the fact that people were juggling lots of stuff from the rest of their lives, and yet they still got stuff done together. And so they were very people focused, they were very caring and empathetic, and yet also did important work. And so we can take that as a I think a really positive sign that whatever gets thrown at us, we can do the same thing again.

Katrina Hancock 9:37

Yeah, and I mean that in many ways that was a bit easier because everybody was going through it. And of course, if you're in an organisation that's got a unique circumstance that's really specific, and perhaps often as it is in these cases, very emotionally challenging, sometimes I think it really helps just to call it and name it for what it is, as in this is rubbish, this is hard, this is unfair, or this feels unfair, or even leading by example and saying, I'm confused, actually. I need to take some time to think about this as well. And and recognising you cannot fix everything. I think we've talked before that I'm a bit of a fixer, I like to solve things, and sometimes things are out of your control, you can't fix them. And so it really is about doing the next right thing, keeping the person in front of you front and centre, and also keeping that longer perspective.

Liz Reilly 10:20

And listening, listening to them, even if you can't fix whatever the issue is, listening and showing that you've listened, that you're doing what you can goes a long way.

Katrina Hancock 10:28

Yeah, and again, then learning from it and planning for the future, and back to those really boring risk registers. Risk registers invariably have the thing, don't have the thing that happened on them because you weren't expecting it. And so it is making time that you take that breath. And the health sector is actually really good about this, particularly in nursing and medicine. That if something goes wrong, they will then debrief from it and have a learning session where they're not actually pointing out blame or allocating blame at all, they're simply learning. And I think actually across all the sectors, we could all learn from that to have that safe environment. We go, what did we learn so that this doesn't happen again? But also what did we learn so that we can be better?

Liz Reilly 11:08

And that does continue to build trust, right? Ultimately, that's about that goes back to building and maintaining trust, that people understand how decisions are made, they feel like they've had a chance to weigh in, and that people are learning from any things that could be done differently next time.

Katrina Hancock 11:22

And in all of this, it's about relationships because it's all about building those relationships so that they are more than just lip service or employer, employee, or even donor or supporter. It's about a long-term relationship. We're not here just for now, we're here hopefully for a lot longer.

Liz Reilly 11:39

Absolutely. Great to chat with you.

Katrina Hancock 11:41

Likewise.