Simon Pennington 0:04

Katrina, we're talking about permanent gifts versus those that are for a period of time to achieve something. I wonder if you can reflect on a gift that where the sort of sense of permanence was important to the donor and whether you whether you'd seen that in advance, whether you engage the person and asked them differently because of it.

Katrina Hancock 0:24

Yeah, I've seen a number of donors who want to give, particularly into higher education institutions, because they themselves are permanent organisations, or at least one hopes that they will be. And so there's a sense of trust between the donor and the organisation that by making the gift to them, that gift will then last in perpetuity. And I've seen it given both in the forms of endowment gifts where perhaps a teaching post or a scholarship has been endowed so that that will last for all time. But I've also seen it for building projects where the building is that tangible, permanent reminder of the gift that's being given. And I think with both of them, it's been understanding the donor's motivation and whether that's a permanence of their own memory, their own legacy, or in one case recognition of their parents and making sure that there was something lasting to recognise the sacrifices their parents had made on their behalf. And I think helping to that donor to explore what matters to them and whether or not that's about a post and how the investments then managed and the longevity, or about something tangible that they can literally come back to, and their children and their children's children can come back to. That was really quite helpful in determining what kind of gift we were discussing.

Simon Pennington 1:34

Yeah, it's interesting. Sometimes the name is the key thing. I want the name of a loved one, or maybe my own name, name of parents, name of a teacher, somebody that name to be there, still doing the thing I give it for today, still doing it in a hundred years' time. Sometimes it's the issue. I dealt with a wonderful donor when I worked at at UCL before I joined More, who gave a permanent scholarship to tackle the causes and consequences of intolerance. And his view was intolerance will always be with us. And so I want to do something that has impact. So that's stitched into the terms of the gift is that it should fund a student who's gonna have policy impact as far as possible, direct impact in the world, but he also wanted it to be permanent. He felt that intolerance is not something that's gonna stop one day, so having it there permanently is important. What about a what about a shorter term gift? Have you, is there a donor there that sort of springs to mind who said, I want to see, you know, come back to me in three or five years, I want to see the change.

Katrina Hancock 2:36

Yes, so very much when somebody also is perhaps starting out on a journey with the organisation, with the charity, where they perhaps aren't in a position or are not ready to make a bigger commitment, but also want to see impact straight away, and perhaps the size of the gift might be a little bit smaller in the first instance, and then we can report back and say, yeah, this is the difference they made. Interestingly, I've seen those gifts really tied to supporting individuals, and the challenge has been then to make sure that the gift that we've received can be used straight away and will have a demonstrable impact. And what we found is that that's very relational, and so you've got obviously reporting behind that, but where it's appropriate, trying to have the donor then meet the recipient, and that level of stewardship has really helped them to go, okay. Not only can I see this is making an impact, but I can see the person it's making an impact on, and that that then builds a sense of trust with the organisation and has then led to a bigger, more permanent gift in the future. What about you?

Simon Pennington 3:34

Well, I think the ones who give shorter term gifts still want to see some sort of permanent change. So I remember dealing with a charity and saying to them, look, this is a great project and it'll do great work. You put this team in to do X over a period of five years. But if they stop funding, then the problem's gonna be back in the same way that it was before the next day. And most owners, they particularly ones giving at big levels, don't they want to feel that. They want to say, We'll find an evidence base to do this differently, or we'll make the we'll do a pilot and someone else will then pick it up permanently.

Katrina Hancock 4:09

Yeah, they're looking for that long-term change. It's not just a sticking plaster or a fix. It is very much saying, okay, how are we actually going to change the world or change a life or address a situation? And and that's sometimes where I found that partnership gifts work very well, as you're saying, either with a pilot or where one gift's motivating another gift, where two or three people are really cause-aligned, and by coming together, they can then have a bigger impact over a longer period of time.

Simon Pennington 4:33

Some donors are having really interesting conversations about this. I think of foundations that have been trying to evaluate the benefit of having something permanent. Again, often honouring a founder from maybe a few decades ago and feeling as though the issues they're tackling will always be here, versus if we invest now, perhaps the problem's at its height now. If you've got if you're a donor tackling climate change, you might ask what the point is of having something permanent when you could put all of that money to good use now. And we see interesting decisions being made by different philanthropies and philanthropists about how quickly we spend down, what sorts of when we spend down, what the policy is. I've also known one or two funders who've just actually kind of got tired of it. They feel they want to feel the money spent, it's been used well, and I've I've done what I needed to do. So those conversations within donors' minds and around the around the table for donors that are foundations in particular are happening.

Katrina Hancock 5:37

Yeah, I've seen that where people have set up trusts or foundations, often family charitable trusts, and they've either got the sense of they want that foundation to last in perpetuity because they think the issues it's going to face are going to last in perpetuity, or a recognition that perhaps within a generation those funds need to be used to address something so that it's not going on forever and ever. And likewise, sometimes the institutions receiving the gifts recognise that there is a time limit on how long it will take to solve that problem, and so don't necessarily want an endowment that's restricted in perpetuity for something that actually might be addressed within a single generation. And I think those dialogues between donor and institution become really important about co-creation of the solution. Obviously, both sides are really passionate about it, but they need to be realistic about what can be achieved on what's time scale, and also what's the next likely thing to be that they could also be supporting?

Simon Pennington 6:28

I guess I think the stewardship looks a bit different between somebody who's giving you a gift they want to last for centuries and somebody , someone that's three or four years and they want to see impact. I wonder if, from those gifts you talked about earlier, whether perhaps the person thinking about permanence, what does the what does the stewardship journey look like for somebody like that, would you say?

Katrina Hancock 6:49

I've been reflecting on that today, and I still think it's very much about the relationship. And particularly if somebody's endowing a post or something that an individual is going to hold, where that individual will then change in time. And it's really important that there's good handovers between that, that the reason behind the gift is not lost, and just because perhaps the person involved in that project now is different to the person in ten years' time, actually, the cause, the reason that person gave in the first instance remains. So, it's really important to manage those relationships through. And similarly, even with a building, it's easy to say, oh great, the recognition's done, the name's on the wall. But I was talking to somebody recently who said actually the upkeep of that building becomes really important because nobody then wants to be associated with something that's a bit tatty, a bit old, or unloved. And you know, that of course your best donor is going to be someone who's given before, so the hope is perhaps that they might then give again. But even if you take that gift in and of its own, it's still transformative to the organisation. So actually, the organisation needs to continue that stewardship through different leaderships, through different members of staff involved in fundraising and philanthropy.

Simon Pennington 7:54

Yeah, I know a big donor who said we don't name anymore for that exactly that reason, because when the building gets tatty, they're gonna need money to upgrade it, and who's gonna upgrade a building with our name on it? It can only be us. So we just realise we're on the hook forever if we if we if we do name buildings. It's been a really interesting exploration of permanence versus episodic. Actually, I think we found that some there's some commonality. People usually, even if they're giving short term, want to see a step change. The stewardship and reporting needs to be very thoughtful. Usually the gift is based on trust. But I think usually also you can tell whether somebody's interested in that very long-term horizon quite quickly, and the way that you engage them, the way that you ask them, the presentation of the proposal will be a bit different than if somebody's wanting to give shorter term.

Katrina Hancock 8:52

It will, and also there'll be an element of whether or not this is emotion-led or cause-led or trust-led. I mean, sometimes it's a fusion of all three, but sometimes that will then drive both the scale of the gift and actually what stewardship they desire afterwards. Sometimes it really is about having a permanent sense of belonging. Sometimes, as you said earlier, it's about change, addressing issues that are affecting society today or that they care deeply about. And sometimes it is about wanting to be a genuine partner to make sure that they're leaving the world in a better place for the next person. And I think understanding those motivators and the motivations behind the gift help you then recognise well, what stewardship's appropriate, but in all of it, as I go back to say, it's the relationship, it's understanding what's motivating them and staying on that journey together.

Simon Pennington 9:35

Good moment to draw it to a close, Katrina. Thanks very much for the conversation. I've learned a lot.