Liz Reilly 0:03

Simon, we were going to talk about whether one can plan for transformational gifts. But I think even before we get to that, it would be good to talk about what is a transformational gift. So, how do you define it?

Simon Pennington 0:14

I define it differently depending on the client that you're working with. It should be transformational for them. And in some of the organisations I've worked with, a few tens of hundreds of thousands will be transformational. In some of the biggest organisations in the world, even some numbers of millions will not be transformational. So, it's relevant to the organisation and the place. Would you agree?

Liz Reilly 0:39

I would agree. I think it's it ideally when we're talking about transformation, we're talking about the impact it can have, right? So, for it to really have that potential, it has to be sizeable, but that will differ depending on the organisation. I think it's also interesting to look at it from the donor point of view because they might think what's transformational for them as a family or as a person may not be the institution's idea or the organisation's idea of transformational and navigating that disconnect can be tricky too.

Simon Pennington 1:08

It can. We're just working with a major arts client on a very, very big campaign feasibility study and gifts that will feel very large, I think, to the individual donors, five million, ten million, twenty million, still will represent perhaps no more than one or two percent of the total that they need. And trying to think about ways in which you can develop a way of stewarding that gift, involving leadership, maybe thinking laterally about the things you associate with that gift will be important there. So, let me ask you the question. Do you think these can be planned or do these tend to happen serendipitously?

Liz Reilly 1:50

I think probably like most of these kinds of questions, it's probably a bit of both, right? So, there's an element of having an idea of what is the right match between what you know about the donor and what their interests are, what they're passionate about, what your institution or organisation is doing really well, and you know, beginning to think about a plan for getting them to the place where they're inspired enough to do something transformational. So, there's an element of thinking about the choreography for that, and not just letting things happen step by step, but there's also another element of really responding to changing interests and to taking a conversation to the next stage and really listening to how things might actually not be going in the direction that you originally envisioned and being open to that as well, so that you ultimately can get something that is truly transformational, even though it might not be what you originally intended. So, I think there's an element of planning, but then really being responsive and listening. And I think it is more about creating those conditions in the first place.

Simon Pennington 2:52

Yeah, I guess if I think about the really transformational ones I've come across, there's a small number where the organisation said, this is what we really need, and the donor just said, fine, I'll take that, five or ten million, or whatever it might be. Those are very welcome, they're quite exceptional. The first gift to the Francis Crick Institute, actually, for Cancer Research UK was like that. I think they met a donor who was in the moment of her life where she felt this is the time I want to make my kind of final gifts, probably, and this feels like a particularly compelling cause, and it happened, but usually they're kind of co-created. I want to share one experience, really interesting one I had with a donor to a big university a few years ago and see if this resonates with you. This was a donor who gave really big sum, eight figures, more than 10 million. But I remember him saying to me that it was the more important in the end was giving away the idea. So, somebody who'd decided to give away most of his money was actually inspired by his children about the things he wanted to give to, something that related in some way to climate. And he said we devised this thing that we wanted to establish, but we couldn't do it ourselves. We needed a partner to do it. And whether the money, whether it was a bit more or a bit less, became irrelevant against would they be able to do what we wanted to see done? Would they be able to understand that vision number one and would they be able to implement it? And he said, when I met this particular leader of the organisation they supported, this is the Vice-Chancellor, I just immediately within an hour or two, I got certain that that would be the case. That's an example of a real co-creation, actually, where the university took it on and added some things to it to create something that was bigger than I ever could have thought about. But that concept that the giving away of the idea was as valuable as the giving away of the money was a really interesting, was quite an enlightening moment for me.

Liz Reilly 4:58

And so, the donor, obviously, if it was co-created, the donor was open to the vision that they initially had being flexed a little bit in conversation. So, there's a bit of give and take from both sides.

Simon Pennington 5:08

Yes, this was a university. So, the donor was not the expert. They knew the university would understand how to do this sort of better than I will. So, if they come with their own ideas, we might not say yes to all of them, but we're open-minded. It essentially means both sides coming to the party with an open mind to say we can compromise on one or two things; we hold fast to one or two things. And it's that in that particular instance; the gift has worked brilliantly. I guess thinking about can this be controlled? It seems to me a necessary condition is to think about the very the big idea. So, some of the clients we work with think about incremental stuff, often have immediate short-term pressures that they're facing. And thinking about an idea for 10 or 20 or 50 million is difficult for them. I don't know if you can think of places where you've heard an idea and thought, yes, the big donors will respond to that.

Liz Reilly 6:07

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I 'll try to think about an example of one, but I think, yeah, I think for me it is around shaping something that's outside of the institution's kind of current next step about a programme or an area that they want to be building, and thinking about what is a big question, often like starting from a big question for society, and what is the way that we can make a contribution to this big knotty question, that will then usually emerge into something exciting that can start a conversation and that can lead to that kind of co-dreaming that we've talked about between an institution and a donor. So, yeah, I think there is something around thinking outside of the what's happening in front of your in front of your face right now and what's happening next month at your institution and thinking about what we could do together for the next 10 years from now, 20 years from now. But it can be hard to get to that space. And I think particularly so where I also was kind of going when you began to talk about that example, that donor who came with a vision, I think a lot of places do struggle to actually negotiate at that stage and not just go with whatever the donor might have in mind. It takes a bit of confidence and calm, I think, to say this is a really interesting idea. But actually, we have something, let's find how we can meet in the middle somewhere and rather than just going along with it. So, that's also, I think, a really key element of it. And it I think it helps to establish trust for the donor as well. They see the real leadership there.

Simon Pennington 7:45

Yeah, I agree. I think that the donor who comes with the idea and the organisation just says yes, fine. It's a bit as rare as the donor just saying, yes, I'll just buy that off the shelf. And both of those extremes are pretty rare. I was thinking about a transformational gift, this is to an Australian client; a client called the Aurora Education Foundation helps provide opportunities for indigenous young people. and they got their transformational gift. They're one of the relatively few sort of small or medium-sized organisations who managed to persuade a donor to give a 10 million gift. To me, it was some of the factors there, they stayed very true to th eir roots, and they actually have become and become and have become more so an Indigenous-led organisation. The moment of a strategic plan actually was quite important. That allows you to think the new chapter we want to open is this. Will you come and help write that chapter with us? Then now that that chapter is sort of closing with that donor, and another one might be opening. But that's quite a powerful moment. A change of leadership can offer that, but then there's no, there's not the same probably relationship with the major donor, which can take a bit of time to develop. So, it's maybe worth thinking about clients with moving into new strategic plans at that kind of inflection point. Is this a moment where you could involve one of your potential transformational donors, not to write the plan for you, but at least to be consulting them at different steps, hearing their ideas, shaping what they might they might do with you.

Liz Reilly 9:27

So, they feel part of the whatever that next stage looks like, and whoever the next leader might be that they've been involved in shaping that all along. Yeah.

Simon Pennington 9:34

I think so.

Liz Reilly 9:35

What do you think? So, we've touched on some of the conditions that you have to put in place ideally to kind of create the environment where major gifts and transformational gifts can flourish, and that includes the big ideas piece, so really thinking beyond what's next to something huge that you could do, I think for society. But other than big ideas, what do you think the other key conditions are?

Simon Pennington 9:59

I think there'll be trust there already, usually. There's you there's usually a very powerful relationship that has existed probably for a while, sits at the heart of some of these. That first gift at Cancer Research UK, there was a clinician or researcher who was kind of had been close to the donor and their family for a long time. And if I think about again, the gift I referred to the university earlier, that's a relationship with the Vice-Chancellor that has been nurtured over time. So, when the donor feels as though they're ready, probably multiple people, multiple leaders across the organisation will be on first name terms with them. So, these tend to come from friends and not strangers. Not always, but usually there'll be someone who's got a history of being involved with you. We talked to Kirsty McDonald at Royal Academy of Music a little while ago, and she talked about a transformational gift they've had there relatively recently, and that's somebody who's been giving consistently over a period of years, who knows, and they've had stable leadership through that time. Director has lasted a long time, the Vice Principal, Kirsty, as well. So, I think trust, confidence in a person, having the big idea, how it will transform. I think probably also brilliant reporting and stewardship, imaginative reporting and stewardship, that can be where fundraisers come in. I don't know. Well tell me about one or two that you've seen. What do you think the chemistry or the factors were?

Liz Reilly 11:39

I think just thinking about it from a kind of client point of view, I think those that maybe haven't done much in the transformational giving space might tend to think that they have to start from finding the people with lots of money. And actually what we're talking about is starting with leaders that are willing to engage with those that have a relationship with the institution about big ideas and they're willing to craft big ideas and represent them and engage externally in them, that that's kind of more important than finding the people that have the money. And of course, finding people who can make the transformational gifts is also part of it, right? So, we can talk about that element, but I think any institution can look at as a starting point who are your current top 10 or top 20 donors in terms of how much they're currently giving, or who are the people that have given consistently over five, 10, 15, 20 years, who are the people that already believe, and starting from there. So, any place can start from where they the relationships they already have, and doing network mapping and figuring out who those people might know that can reach those that may have capacity that their current network doesn't have. So, I think, yeah, that's an important condition, obviously, is having the people who can make the gifts, but starting from those that you already know, even if they don't have that capacity, is important.

Simon Pennington 13:00

Yeah, the transformational donors I've known have not very often been prominent in the rich list, for example. They can either be quite private and not even particularly super wealthy, but willing to give almost all of their all of the money they've earned in their life to this one cause that animates them, or sometimes they're good at staying a little bit under the radar for probably for obvious reasons. And often they've been developing this idea or concept for a while. So, it at some time often it's said it takes a long time to negotiate these gifts, and that's typically true. But sometimes the donor's been developing the idea in their own mind. So, actually the warm-up period to get the gift is happening without the organisation necessarily knowing it, and the donor is thinking it through. I interviewed, I was lucky enough to interview James Martin in his lifetime that who funded the Oxford Martin School, and he's quoted as saying the animating idea behind that gift was that fairly early on in the 21st century, he had said to himself, this could be the best century or the worst century, depending on the choices we make now. And if you have means, then it behoves you to think about what I can do in order to make sure the odds of it being the best century, not the worst century, are as high as possible. It was a real logical, it was the thought process of a logician or a scientist, which is what he was. And he was an Oxford graduate, but he looked at several different universities and where was the best place. I genuinely think if another place had been better, he'd have headed there. But the development of the idea for the Martin School, which Oxford took on and delivered really exceptionally, was I think probably germinating in Jim Martin's mind for years, maybe even decades before the gift came.

Liz Reilly 15:06

I think I have one last question for you. You might have other questions, but last question I have is thinking about through all the different development offices that you've worked with and the different fundraisers that you've worked with who have been really good at inspiring transformational gifts. What are the kind of key qualities that you've seen? And I mean, we're thinking about just those conditions. One of the conditions is great fundraisers who actually know how to do this work well. So, what do you think that takes?

Simon Pennington 15:35

It's spotting a moment in time. So, I think Kirsty probably did that outstandingly with the with the very large gift that the Royal Academy of Music delivered. It's providing some real lines about impact rather than the kind of gift itself, so that the donor feels I have to, you know, it's compelling, I have to get on board with that. It's briefing those who are asking, who may not, probably have never thought about asking for something this big before. This is how it would work. This is where fundraisers actually asking for small gifts, holding the silence, finding ways, finding the right energy to bring a donor with them to get them over the line. The things you learn getting quite modest gifts actually stand you in good stead for briefing people to ask for the very biggest gifts because the things that happen aren't very different, they're on a bigger scale, but the behaviours and the psychology are actually in many ways the same. And for some people, even quite a smallest gift is big for them. So, I think those would be the things I'd highlight. It's been a fascinating go around the major gift space. It's brought back wonderful memories about moments of transformation. Fundraisers are lucky to see a few of those in their lifetimes, I think. So, it's been good to talk to you about them.

Liz Reilly 17:01

Same to you.